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[socket]

I know this might not be the right place to post something like this but I finally feel good about being an American.

:-)

[DeVS]

I second that!!!

[tennisgy]

I was so close to being a Canadian for life 

[Haoie]

The rest of the world sighs in relief with you.

[onekelly]

Fully Agreed!

[snub17]

Obama, Can we fix it? YES WE CAN!

[Destro]

Obama : can he turn the USA into a 1930's European style socialist country?  Yes he can!!!

Go read some Karl Marx, and then read one of Obama's books/read some about what Obama himself believes...  pretty scary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Marx

Marx believed that capitalism would eventually be replaced by communism/socialism...  this is what Obama also believes.  if you don't believe that, do a little Googling, and you will find that Obama was in the "New Party" (a socialist political party) when he first got into politics (1996), and only switched to the democratic party when he wanted to be taken seriously for higher offices.

If you think that socialism/communism is the way to go, keep supporting Obama.  I'd like to know why you think it will be successful this time around...  it hasn't really been a successful strategy for many other countries before.

(BTW - I am as tired of George Bush as anyone... and am glad to see him go.  I think some things that Obama will do will be good, like get us out of unnecessary wars, etc.  I'm just not a big fan of socialism.)

[sonicwind]

where in his current plan for policies does he mention these socialistic tendencies? and how the ef would he ever be able to accomplish turning the United States into a communist state when there are checks and balances that obviously don't want the country's basic underlying principles to be defined by socialism.

[socket]

I completely understand the fear of a Marxist USA... But really - it's not going to happen.  At least I sure hope not!

Also, the global economy is so far beyond repair we're in trouble no matter what! 

I can't remember who, but someone pointed me to Chris Martenson's blog (http://www.chrismartenson.com) recently.  I don't think he has any kind of agenda other than informing everyone... Check out some of his stuff and if you can find a few hours, watch his "Crash Course" or at least a chapter or two.  I read it here and there and it's pretty interesting how really we are in unprecedented times... and not only in the US.

I didn't mean to start this thread as a political fighting thread... As long as it's kept civil it will be opened.

[Destro]

where in his current plan for policies does he mention these socialistic tendencies? and how the ef would he ever be able to accomplish turning the United States into a communist state when there are checks and balances that obviously don't want the country's basic underlying principles to be defined by socialism.

Obama has been talking about "redistribution of wealth" from day 1, and that is the principle that everything else in his platform is based on.  Redistribution of wealth is the definition of communism/socialism/marxism.

Lots of people are getting caught up by his enthusiasm, and really fantastic communication abilities, and not really paying attention to where his policies will take the country, and what has happened to other countries that have followed similar paths.

When you take money away from the rich to give to the poor, the rich have less money with which to create businesses the drive the economy and create jobs, and over time, this gradually erodes the economic foundation.  If you really want to do well for yourself, you either need to start a business, or work for one that will pay you well.  In Obama's plan, if you own you own business, he's going to take money from you to give to people who don't want to work.  If you want to get a good paying job somewhere, those will be fewer and far between, because big business will have less money with which to invest and create those jobs.

The democratic party as a whole, have been gradually sliding towards more socialistic tendencies over the past 25 years, as the republican party has drifted toward the middle, especially when it comes to economic policy.  George Bush, for example, created more social programs and any democratic president in 50 years!!!  The libertarian parts is really filling the gap left by the old GOP, with a conservative fiscal platform.  If you're at all interested in politics, you should really educate yourself about the libertarian party, and some of the things that Ron Paul has advocated (i.e. he predicted the mortgage crisis several years ago, but people wouldn't listen, and thought he was a nut case).

[Destro]

Also, the global economy is so far beyond repair we're in trouble no matter what! 

I don't think the global economy is beyond repair.  It is in a rough spot, but it's really a necessary correction to the craziness that's been going on for the past 5 years, especially in the USA.  People need to stop living off debt.  I don't know if people are doing that as much in other countries, but Americans have really become addicted to debt.  I learned about Dave Ramsey about 7 years ago after my daughter was born, and got completely out of debt myself. 

Click here for more info on Dave

I just paid cash for a new 2009 Scion xB !!!

I didn't mean to start this thread as a political fighting thread... As long as it's kept civil it will be opened.

I'm actually pleasantly surprised with the responses so far.  I was hoping to have an intelligent discussion, and so far so good!!

[socket]

One question... How is the bank bailout not the ultimate form of socialism?  It's going to drive us deeper into our current hole.  The USD is so worthless now, and ever since it became devalued (in terms of a gold standard) we've been in a lot of trouble.. Sure the markets have been great, but they can only grow exponentially for so long before they outgrow their ability... I'm honestly worried about it, but what can I say?  Nothing.  We just have to wait and see what comes of all of this...

On to being obsessed with debt.  I was raised by a modest set of parents and have been given their same morals.  I've always been told to not overextend myself and have not used debt for much of anything.  I bought a modest car (a used ford focus) and a modest house (in the suburbs of pittsburgh)... I agree that Americans are obsessed with debt.  It is sickening.  If you can't afford it, don't get it...

On to another point... One thing I have never understood is the "religion" or "christianity" that a lot of conservatives seem to live so "true" to.  If you really wanted to live by the bible you would help those less fortunate than you... Isnt that what Jesus was all about??? To me, that sounds like a form of "redistribution of wealth" - I'm just pushing buttons here, so don't get too offended.  To me, helping those less fortunate than me is what it is all about... basically helping people who were like me and my wife when we were younger.  We just happened to "make it" but many like us have struggled with the current "system" and it's just plain not working.  People will say that they work for what they have, but I think a lot of it has to do with "class" and "knowing the right people" which really makes the system fall apart overall.  I'm talking out of my ass as it is "wing night" and I had a few brews at the bar... AND the pens lost... but whatever.

[Destro]

The bailout is a big mess, but it's not socialism.  I don't know what to call it...   if you really look back to what got us into it, it was the democratic party insisting that everyone "deserves" to own a house, and forcing the lenders to lend to people with suspect credit.  This was mostly driven by the democrats pandering to minorities.  John McCain called for regulation and oversight of the mortgage industry 2 years ago, but the democrats were in control of congress, and wouldn't even let it come up for a vote.

Christians do believe in helping those less fortunate, and they by and large do that.

What happens in politics and government is a different dynamic.  Politicians (use to be democrats, but now both parties are doing it) tend to create social programs that appeal to many people, so that those people will vote for them, and keep them in office.  Those programs are not what's necessarily good for the country in the long term.  Social programs (welfare and other types of redistribution of wealth) create a disincentive for people to work hard, over time. 

The key is differentiating people who are "less fortunate" from those who are lazy or lack initiative.

Even Karl Marx didn't say that socialism was the best way, he really just said it was inevitable, because the lazy part of the population will always outnumber the people that want to work hard for what they get, so gradually those people will drive the government towards socialism.  The problem is that once you're there, there are no rich people left to fund the system, so the standard of living continues to deteriorate.  That's why Russia, and most other communist/socialist countries eventually collapse.  China has survived when Russia did not by moderating their flavor of Communism and encouraging Capitalism.  China is now more hybrid with a capitalistic economic system/military-regime type government.